Topics

Roll Chocks

richarddalaska
 

While we “shelter in place” in San Carlos Mexico, I have decided to have roll chocks installed on Lilliana, our W40 sedan. Has any other W40 owner made preliminary designs for such fins? I need to decide on length, width, thickness, shape and placement. At present I just have the photos from Veronica that are on this site.

One consideration involves how to set the angle wrt the hull so that they do not break off if we ever go aground on an outgoing tide.. Assuming that much of the weight of the boat would then rest on one chock we wouldn’t want it to break off or puncture the hull.

At present I think I would make the chocks from 1-1.5” plywood, covered in fiberglass and epoxy with a large radius fillet at the point of hull attachment. Leading and trailing edges will be streamlined  but not sharp.

Any idea are much appreciated.


--
Richard P
Willard 40 -Lilliana-Sea of Cortez, Mexico
Willard 30- Puffin- SE Alaska
Tiffany Jayne 34-sailboat- Dancer- SF Bay

Sven
 

I'm certainly looking forward to the discussion to follow and think I asked the prior group about this when we were still searching for our last boat a couple of years ago.  Since we have paravanes on LAGOM the need is not as critical as it would be otherwise,  but it is still of interest.

Additional questions have to do with where to position the fins so they don't interfere with lifting straps and can the fins be made to also work as bilge-keels that support the boat in the mud at low tide ?

-Sven & Nancy

Ron Rogers
 


On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 1:12 PM richarddalaska <rpackard@...> wrote:
While we “shelter in place” in San Carlos Mexico, I have decided to have roll chocks installed on Lilliana, our W40 sedan. Has any other W40 owner made preliminary designs for such fins? I need to decide on length, width, thickness, shape and placement. At present I just have the photos from Veronica that are on this site.

One consideration involves how to set the angle wrt the hull so that they do not break off if we ever go aground on an outgoing tide.. Assuming that much of the weight of the boat would then rest on one chock we wouldn’t want it to break off or puncture the hull.

At present I think I would make the chocks from 1-1.5” plywood, covered in fiberglass and epoxy with a large radius fillet at the point of hull attachment. Leading and trailing edges will be streamlined  but not sharp.

Any idea are much appreciated.


--
Richard P
Willard 40 -Lilliana-Sea of Cortez, Mexico
Willard 30- Puffin- SE Alaska
Tiffany Jayne 34-sailboat- Dancer- SF Bay

Peter P
 

RIchard - a few thoughts.

1. Attached PDF is an article from the WBO files. 

2. Below is a cut/paste from Veronica on their roll-chock install. I was hoping there was more info on the dimensions, but nada. I would assume at least 10-feet long. The PDF article mentions 5-inches at base, 2-inches at outer edge. How deep? I'd guess 10-inches? Maybe there's a pic of Verionica in the FIles. 

3. If I were to do this, I would make the core in foam, then glass over it. 

Great project - keep us posted.

Peter


This commentary is in response to inquiries about my experience installing roll chock, also called bilge keels.  Bilge keel is probably the proper name for these appendages.  I will, however, use the more colloquial term "roll chock" for two reasons.  A bilge keel sounds like it should be de$igned by a Naval Architect.  Roll Chocks sounds like the sort of thing a grizzled old waterman would slap on his boat using nothing more than his knowledgeable eye and skilled hands. The latter describes the process that led to Veronica's appendages, so I will call them Roll Chocks. 

Veronica is a Willard 40 raised pilothouse trawler, built in 1974.  I am her fourth owner.  After many years of sailing San Francisco Bay, my wife and I decided to take up trawlering.  I knew I wanted a full displacement trawler, after all, my sailboat was a full displacement hull.  The full displacement requirement limited my choices to Willard, Krogen and a few others.  When I first saw Veronica, I was smitten.  The prior owner had restored her to better than new condition.  There was dust in the bilge, she was so dry.  When my wife whispered in my ear, "If we don't buy this boat, we'll kick ourselves the rest of our lives."  We live in Northern California, but Veronica was in Marathon Florida, in the Keys.  So we decided to buy her and do the Great Loop piecemeal. 

Now, about the name.  The prior owner renamed her Veronica, after his mother.  A picture of her is displayed on the bridge.  Like the boat, she is formidable.  It is a credit to the checkout given to me by the prior owner that I came to know the boat as Veronica.  I briefly gave thought to change her name to Ruthless, after my deceased mother, but spouse and siblings put an end to that. 

We discovered her rolling abilities early on.  In a beam sea of 2 or 3 feet, she would set up a roll which got worse with every wave.  Other than holding on, it didn't bother me, but the same cannot be said of my wife and dog.  I seriously considered renaming the dog "Major Chunks," but my spouse and siblings put an end to that.

In St. Charles, VA, I met a waterman admiring Veronica's lines.  Bluff in the counter and round in the bows.  We got to talking boats.  He allowed as she "looks to roll a mite" and I allowed she did.  He suggensted I stick on a pair of Roll Chocks.  I asked him what's a roll chock? and the rest is history.  Any boatyard round here'll do it for you he said. 

So, when we decommissioned for the winter at Sea Mark Marine in Crisfield, MD, Mark Good, the owner, known to one and all as Goody, asked how she handled a beam sea.  I told him about Major Chunks and all that.  Mentioned the waterman who suggested roll chocks.  Goody marched around the boat a couple times and said, yeh, we could do 'er.  I asked how much and what kind of guarantee he offered.  He said $10,000.  If you don't like'em, I'll take them off no charge for anything.

I figured, what the hell. 

So I came out early in the Spring to recommission and supervise the roll chocks.  You can see the results in the pictures in this folder.  Do they work?  We took a shakedown cruise, accompanied by Goody in his (shudder) Bayliner.  At anchor in Onancock (that's the name of the place, really!) the Willard rolled less than the Bayliner.

A couple of days later, heading for Annapolis, we got waked by a Sportfisherman.  Seriously waked.  I couldn't turn to take it bow on due to traffic, so we took a 5 ft. wake beam on.  It was a total non-event.  Didn't wake the dog.  A couple of gentle rolls, each weaker than the last, and that was it.  I said to myself, "Goody, you're a effing genius."

We were waked again later in the trip.  My wife, the Presbyterian minister's daughter, said the same thing. 

To say the roll chocks are a success is an understatement.  I have included some light reading on the subject for those who are interested.  Steve Bedford of this group have been aboard and are contemplating doing the same to their Willard 40 as well. 

It is the best change I have made in the boat.  40 knots of wind on the beam, no problem.  Its not as nice as balmy zephyers, but it is doable and not hazardous, although the fun quotent is getting low.  No discernable change in fuel burn, turning radius or running angle. 

If you have any questions, feel free to contact me on or off list.

Bob Salmons, Milly and Riggs the poodle

Veronica

Willard 40 RPH


On Friday, April 10, 2020, 01:12:35 PM EDT, richarddalaska <rpackard@...> wrote:


While we “shelter in place” in San Carlos Mexico, I have decided to have roll chocks installed on Lilliana, our W40 sedan. Has any other W40 owner made preliminary designs for such fins? I need to decide on length, width, thickness, shape and placement. At present I just have the photos from Veronica that are on this site.

One consideration involves how to set the angle wrt the hull so that they do not break off if we ever go aground on an outgoing tide.. Assuming that much of the weight of the boat would then rest on one chock we wouldn’t want it to break off or puncture the hull.

At present I think I would make the chocks from 1-1.5” plywood, covered in fiberglass and epoxy with a large radius fillet at the point of hull attachment. Leading and trailing edges will be streamlined  but not sharp.

Any idea are much appreciated.


--
Richard P
Willard 40 -Lilliana-Sea of Cortez, Mexico
Willard 30- Puffin- SE Alaska
Tiffany Jayne 34-sailboat- Dancer- SF Bay

--

M/V Weebles
1970 Willard 36 Sedan Hull #40

Ensenada, MX

Peter P
 

Apoligies for multiple responses. Go into the <PHOTOS> section of the main WBO site. Search on "chock" and you will see two pictures. Also search on "Veronica" and you will turn up her fins which are surprisingly thin, so perhaps plywood core. All three pictures are from different boats, and are quite a bit different. 

M/V Weebles
1970 Willard 36 Sedan Hull #40

Ensenada, MX

Ron Rogers
 

We have an owner who had bilge keels installed on his W40 by a Maryland Eastern Shore yard. I used the term bilge keels because they are located high enough to not be jeopardized by a normal (not catastrophic) grounding. The yard owner seemed to know what to do without a lot od engineering as I recall.

On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 1:28 PM Ron Rogers via groups.io <rcrogers6=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:

On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 1:12 PM richarddalaska <rpackard@...> wrote:
While we “shelter in place” in San Carlos Mexico, I have decided to have roll chocks installed on Lilliana, our W40 sedan. Has any other W40 owner made preliminary designs for such fins? I need to decide on length, width, thickness, shape and placement. At present I just have the photos from Veronica that are on this site.

One consideration involves how to set the angle wrt the hull so that they do not break off if we ever go aground on an outgoing tide.. Assuming that much of the weight of the boat would then rest on one chock we wouldn’t want it to break off or puncture the hull.

At present I think I would make the chocks from 1-1.5” plywood, covered in fiberglass and epoxy with a large radius fillet at the point of hull attachment. Leading and trailing edges will be streamlined  but not sharp.

Any idea are much appreciated.


--
Richard P
Willard 40 -Lilliana-Sea of Cortez, Mexico
Willard 30- Puffin- SE Alaska
Tiffany Jayne 34-sailboat- Dancer- SF Bay

Eric
 

QUASAR has roll chocks. Still need to turn into large wakes from passing boats or the table will be cleared!

On Friday, April 10, 2020, 10:38:20 AM PDT, Ron Rogers <rcrogers6@...> wrote:


We have an owner who had bilge keels installed on his W40 by a Maryland Eastern Shore yard. I used the term bilge keels because they are located high enough to not be jeopardized by a normal (not catastrophic) grounding. The yard owner seemed to know what to do without a lot od engineering as I recall.

On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 1:28 PM Ron Rogers via groups.io <rcrogers6=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:

On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 1:12 PM richarddalaska <rpackard@...> wrote:
While we “shelter in place” in San Carlos Mexico, I have decided to have roll chocks installed on Lilliana, our W40 sedan. Has any other W40 owner made preliminary designs for such fins? I need to decide on length, width, thickness, shape and placement. At present I just have the photos from Veronica that are on this site.

One consideration involves how to set the angle wrt the hull so that they do not break off if we ever go aground on an outgoing tide.. Assuming that much of the weight of the boat would then rest on one chock we wouldn’t want it to break off or puncture the hull.

At present I think I would make the chocks from 1-1.5” plywood, covered in fiberglass and epoxy with a large radius fillet at the point of hull attachment. Leading and trailing edges will be streamlined  but not sharp.

Any idea are much appreciated.


--
Richard P
Willard 40 -Lilliana-Sea of Cortez, Mexico
Willard 30- Puffin- SE Alaska
Tiffany Jayne 34-sailboat- Dancer- SF Bay

Ron Rogers
 

chock did not work for me Peter. I did go to the picture of Veronica. Bilge keels that I have seen on commercial trawlers in North Carolina and pictures of English fishing boats show much longer bilge keels which do not stick out as much. BUT, Veronica's owner has reported that theirs work well.

On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 1:36 PM Peter P via groups.io <pete_pisc=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Apoligies for multiple responses. Go into the <PHOTOS> section of the main WBO site. Search on "chock" and you will see two pictures. Also search on "Veronica" and you will turn up her fins which are surprisingly thin, so perhaps plywood core. All three pictures are from different boats, and are quite a bit different. 

M/V Weebles
1970 Willard 36 Sedan Hull #40

Ensenada, MX

Peter P
 

Here are the JPGs from the archives.



On Friday, April 10, 2020, 02:07:49 PM EDT, Ron Rogers <rcrogers6@...> wrote:


chock did not work for me Peter. I did go to the picture of Veronica. Bilge keels that I have seen on commercial trawlers in North Carolina and pictures of English fishing boats show much longer bilge keels which do not stick out as much. BUT, Veronica's owner has reported that theirs work well.

On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 1:36 PM Peter P via groups.io <pete_pisc=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Apoligies for multiple responses. Go into the <PHOTOS> section of the main WBO site. Search on "chock" and you will see two pictures. Also search on "Veronica" and you will turn up her fins which are surprisingly thin, so perhaps plywood core. All three pictures are from different boats, and are quite a bit different. 

M/V Weebles
1970 Willard 36 Sedan Hull #40

Ensenada, MX


--

M/V Weebles
1970 Willard 36 Sedan Hull #40

Ensenada, MX

Ron Rogers
 

Eric, I can't tell from the picture; how do your roll chocks compare to those in Veronica's picture? Your picture is too dark on my computer for me to make a comparison.

Ron Rogers
AIRBORNE W40FBS
Naiad Stabilizers

On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 1:54 PM Eric via groups.io <eahovland=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
QUASAR has roll chocks. Still need to turn into large wakes from passing boats or the table will be cleared!

Ron Rogers
 

Thank you. The first picture looks like a thick version og my stabilizer fin. The second picture resembles the bilge keels I have seen on commercial trawlers and English fishing boats.

On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 2:14 PM Peter P via groups.io <pete_pisc=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Here are the JPGs from the archives.



On Friday, April 10, 2020, 02:07:49 PM EDT, Ron Rogers <rcrogers6@...> wrote:


chock did not work for me Peter. I did go to the picture of Veronica. Bilge keels that I have seen on commercial trawlers in North Carolina and pictures of English fishing boats show much longer bilge keels which do not stick out as much. BUT, Veronica's owner has reported that theirs work well.

On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 1:36 PM Peter P via groups.io <pete_pisc=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Apoligies for multiple responses. Go into the <PHOTOS> section of the main WBO site. Search on "chock" and you will see two pictures. Also search on "Veronica" and you will turn up her fins which are surprisingly thin, so perhaps plywood core. All three pictures are from different boats, and are quite a bit different. 

M/V Weebles
1970 Willard 36 Sedan Hull #40

Ensenada, MX


--

M/V Weebles
1970 Willard 36 Sedan Hull #40

Ensenada, MX

Ron Rogers
 

Veronica's picture makes the "chocks" look like they stick out further than 10". I sure wish we knew for sure because the owners said that they work. Just put "Veronica" in search.

On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 1:31 PM Peter P via groups.io <pete_pisc=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
RIchard - a few thoughts.

1. Attached PDF is an article from the WBO files. 

2. Below is a cut/paste from Veronica on their roll-chock install. I was hoping there was more info on the dimensions, but nada. I would assume at least 10-feet long. The PDF article mentions 5-inches at base, 2-inches at outer edge. How deep? I'd guess 10-inches? Maybe there's a pic of Verionica in the FIles. 

3. If I were to do this, I would make the core in foam, then glass over it. 

Great project - keep us posted.

Peter


This commentary is in response to inquiries about my experience installing roll chock, also called bilge keels.  Bilge keel is probably the proper name for these appendages.  I will, however, use the more colloquial term "roll chock" for two reasons.  A bilge keel sounds like it should be de$igned by a Naval Architect.  Roll Chocks sounds like the sort of thing a grizzled old waterman would slap on his boat using nothing more than his knowledgeable eye and skilled hands. The latter describes the process that led to Veronica's appendages, so I will call them Roll Chocks. 

Veronica is a Willard 40 raised pilothouse trawler, built in 1974.  I am her fourth owner.  After many years of sailing San Francisco Bay, my wife and I decided to take up trawlering.  I knew I wanted a full displacement trawler, after all, my sailboat was a full displacement hull.  The full displacement requirement limited my choices to Willard, Krogen and a few others.  When I first saw Veronica, I was smitten.  The prior owner had restored her to better than new condition.  There was dust in the bilge, she was so dry.  When my wife whispered in my ear, "If we don't buy this boat, we'll kick ourselves the rest of our lives."  We live in Northern California, but Veronica was in Marathon Florida, in the Keys.  So we decided to buy her and do the Great Loop piecemeal. 

Now, about the name.  The prior owner renamed her Veronica, after his mother.  A picture of her is displayed on the bridge.  Like the boat, she is formidable.  It is a credit to the checkout given to me by the prior owner that I came to know the boat as Veronica.  I briefly gave thought to change her name to Ruthless, after my deceased mother, but spouse and siblings put an end to that. 

We discovered her rolling abilities early on.  In a beam sea of 2 or 3 feet, she would set up a roll which got worse with every wave.  Other than holding on, it didn't bother me, but the same cannot be said of my wife and dog.  I seriously considered renaming the dog "Major Chunks," but my spouse and siblings put an end to that.

In St. Charles, VA, I met a waterman admiring Veronica's lines.  Bluff in the counter and round in the bows.  We got to talking boats.  He allowed as she "looks to roll a mite" and I allowed she did.  He suggensted I stick on a pair of Roll Chocks.  I asked him what's a roll chock? and the rest is history.  Any boatyard round here'll do it for you he said. 

So, when we decommissioned for the winter at Sea Mark Marine in Crisfield, MD, Mark Good, the owner, known to one and all as Goody, asked how she handled a beam sea.  I told him about Major Chunks and all that.  Mentioned the waterman who suggested roll chocks.  Goody marched around the boat a couple times and said, yeh, we could do 'er.  I asked how much and what kind of guarantee he offered.  He said $10,000.  If you don't like'em, I'll take them off no charge for anything.

I figured, what the hell. 

So I came out early in the Spring to recommission and supervise the roll chocks.  You can see the results in the pictures in this folder.  Do they work?  We took a shakedown cruise, accompanied by Goody in his (shudder) Bayliner.  At anchor in Onancock (that's the name of the place, really!) the Willard rolled less than the Bayliner.

A couple of days later, heading for Annapolis, we got waked by a Sportfisherman.  Seriously waked.  I couldn't turn to take it bow on due to traffic, so we took a 5 ft. wake beam on.  It was a total non-event.  Didn't wake the dog.  A couple of gentle rolls, each weaker than the last, and that was it.  I said to myself, "Goody, you're a effing genius."

We were waked again later in the trip.  My wife, the Presbyterian minister's daughter, said the same thing. 

To say the roll chocks are a success is an understatement.  I have included some light reading on the subject for those who are interested.  Steve Bedford of this group have been aboard and are contemplating doing the same to their Willard 40 as well. 

It is the best change I have made in the boat.  40 knots of wind on the beam, no problem.  Its not as nice as balmy zephyers, but it is doable and not hazardous, although the fun quotent is getting low.  No discernable change in fuel burn, turning radius or running angle. 

If you have any questions, feel free to contact me on or off list.

Bob Salmons, Milly and Riggs the poodle

Veronica

Willard 40 RPH


On Friday, April 10, 2020, 01:12:35 PM EDT, richarddalaska <rpackard@...> wrote:


While we “shelter in place” in San Carlos Mexico, I have decided to have roll chocks installed on Lilliana, our W40 sedan. Has any other W40 owner made preliminary designs for such fins? I need to decide on length, width, thickness, shape and placement. At present I just have the photos from Veronica that are on this site.

One consideration involves how to set the angle wrt the hull so that they do not break off if we ever go aground on an outgoing tide.. Assuming that much of the weight of the boat would then rest on one chock we wouldn’t want it to break off or puncture the hull.

At present I think I would make the chocks from 1-1.5” plywood, covered in fiberglass and epoxy with a large radius fillet at the point of hull attachment. Leading and trailing edges will be streamlined  but not sharp.

Any idea are much appreciated.


--
Richard P
Willard 40 -Lilliana-Sea of Cortez, Mexico
Willard 30- Puffin- SE Alaska
Tiffany Jayne 34-sailboat- Dancer- SF Bay

--

M/V Weebles
1970 Willard 36 Sedan Hull #40

Ensenada, MX

Ron Rogers
 

Unsubstantiated personal theory: the slower the boat the bigger the bilge keels need to be. The original owner of my boat upsized the Naiad fins one size because of boat speed. The same thing has been done on some Nordhavns. Therefore, Veronica's rather large bilge keels (they stick out more) explain there relative effectiveness.

On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 2:36 PM Ron Rogers via groups.io <rcrogers6=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
Veronica's picture makes the "chocks" look like they stick out further than 10". I sure wish we knew for sure because the owners said that they work. Just put "Veronica" in search.

On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 1:31 PM Peter P via groups.io <pete_pisc=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
RIchard - a few thoughts.

1. Attached PDF is an article from the WBO files. 

2. Below is a cut/paste from Veronica on their roll-chock install. I was hoping there was more info on the dimensions, but nada. I would assume at least 10-feet long. The PDF article mentions 5-inches at base, 2-inches at outer edge. How deep? I'd guess 10-inches? Maybe there's a pic of Verionica in the FIles. 

3. If I were to do this, I would make the core in foam, then glass over it. 

Great project - keep us posted.

Peter


This commentary is in response to inquiries about my experience installing roll chock, also called bilge keels.  Bilge keel is probably the proper name for these appendages.  I will, however, use the more colloquial term "roll chock" for two reasons.  A bilge keel sounds like it should be de$igned by a Naval Architect.  Roll Chocks sounds like the sort of thing a grizzled old waterman would slap on his boat using nothing more than his knowledgeable eye and skilled hands. The latter describes the process that led to Veronica's appendages, so I will call them Roll Chocks. 

Veronica is a Willard 40 raised pilothouse trawler, built in 1974.  I am her fourth owner.  After many years of sailing San Francisco Bay, my wife and I decided to take up trawlering.  I knew I wanted a full displacement trawler, after all, my sailboat was a full displacement hull.  The full displacement requirement limited my choices to Willard, Krogen and a few others.  When I first saw Veronica, I was smitten.  The prior owner had restored her to better than new condition.  There was dust in the bilge, she was so dry.  When my wife whispered in my ear, "If we don't buy this boat, we'll kick ourselves the rest of our lives."  We live in Northern California, but Veronica was in Marathon Florida, in the Keys.  So we decided to buy her and do the Great Loop piecemeal. 

Now, about the name.  The prior owner renamed her Veronica, after his mother.  A picture of her is displayed on the bridge.  Like the boat, she is formidable.  It is a credit to the checkout given to me by the prior owner that I came to know the boat as Veronica.  I briefly gave thought to change her name to Ruthless, after my deceased mother, but spouse and siblings put an end to that. 

We discovered her rolling abilities early on.  In a beam sea of 2 or 3 feet, she would set up a roll which got worse with every wave.  Other than holding on, it didn't bother me, but the same cannot be said of my wife and dog.  I seriously considered renaming the dog "Major Chunks," but my spouse and siblings put an end to that.

In St. Charles, VA, I met a waterman admiring Veronica's lines.  Bluff in the counter and round in the bows.  We got to talking boats.  He allowed as she "looks to roll a mite" and I allowed she did.  He suggensted I stick on a pair of Roll Chocks.  I asked him what's a roll chock? and the rest is history.  Any boatyard round here'll do it for you he said. 

So, when we decommissioned for the winter at Sea Mark Marine in Crisfield, MD, Mark Good, the owner, known to one and all as Goody, asked how she handled a beam sea.  I told him about Major Chunks and all that.  Mentioned the waterman who suggested roll chocks.  Goody marched around the boat a couple times and said, yeh, we could do 'er.  I asked how much and what kind of guarantee he offered.  He said $10,000.  If you don't like'em, I'll take them off no charge for anything.

I figured, what the hell. 

So I came out early in the Spring to recommission and supervise the roll chocks.  You can see the results in the pictures in this folder.  Do they work?  We took a shakedown cruise, accompanied by Goody in his (shudder) Bayliner.  At anchor in Onancock (that's the name of the place, really!) the Willard rolled less than the Bayliner.

A couple of days later, heading for Annapolis, we got waked by a Sportfisherman.  Seriously waked.  I couldn't turn to take it bow on due to traffic, so we took a 5 ft. wake beam on.  It was a total non-event.  Didn't wake the dog.  A couple of gentle rolls, each weaker than the last, and that was it.  I said to myself, "Goody, you're a effing genius."

We were waked again later in the trip.  My wife, the Presbyterian minister's daughter, said the same thing. 

To say the roll chocks are a success is an understatement.  I have included some light reading on the subject for those who are interested.  Steve Bedford of this group have been aboard and are contemplating doing the same to their Willard 40 as well. 

It is the best change I have made in the boat.  40 knots of wind on the beam, no problem.  Its not as nice as balmy zephyers, but it is doable and not hazardous, although the fun quotent is getting low.  No discernable change in fuel burn, turning radius or running angle. 

If you have any questions, feel free to contact me on or off list.

Bob Salmons, Milly and Riggs the poodle

Veronica

Willard 40 RPH


On Friday, April 10, 2020, 01:12:35 PM EDT, richarddalaska <rpackard@...> wrote:


While we “shelter in place” in San Carlos Mexico, I have decided to have roll chocks installed on Lilliana, our W40 sedan. Has any other W40 owner made preliminary designs for such fins? I need to decide on length, width, thickness, shape and placement. At present I just have the photos from Veronica that are on this site.

One consideration involves how to set the angle wrt the hull so that they do not break off if we ever go aground on an outgoing tide.. Assuming that much of the weight of the boat would then rest on one chock we wouldn’t want it to break off or puncture the hull.

At present I think I would make the chocks from 1-1.5” plywood, covered in fiberglass and epoxy with a large radius fillet at the point of hull attachment. Leading and trailing edges will be streamlined  but not sharp.

Any idea are much appreciated.


--
Richard P
Willard 40 -Lilliana-Sea of Cortez, Mexico
Willard 30- Puffin- SE Alaska
Tiffany Jayne 34-sailboat- Dancer- SF Bay

--

M/V Weebles
1970 Willard 36 Sedan Hull #40

Ensenada, MX

Mike Miles
 

I have stabilizer fins on my 1969 Aft Pilothouse 36’ Vega, Genesis, that are currently inoperable due to “loss of pressure”, according to the previous owner. I am restoring the system as well as the rest of the boat and am presently replacing hoses.
The stabilizer fins are in the neutral position and are fairly solidly locked in that angle. I have pretty much a complete set of blueprints and manuals for the entire system. I don’t know too much about the system yet but I will try to answer any questions should they come up. I do know that the placement of the fins is about a foot from the bottom edge of the keel.

Mike Miles
Genesis, hull #37, 69 Aft Pilot house
and Miles To Go, 36 foot custom built Biloxi fiberglass lugger

Eric
 

Ron, Quasars roll chocks look like Peters picture 1.  From memory, they are about 2 inches thick and stick out between 6 & 8 inches. I can stick my arm in the water and measure, I will probably be going down later to work on some projects. Couldn't find the pic of Veronica's roll chocks.

 We usually turn 45 degrees into large wakes. Not all wakes cause bad rolling. I think a particular size matches the boats resonance. Small speedboat wakes do nothing, large freighter wakes are also not usually a problem.
 If crossing broadside to Puget Sound's typical 2 to 3 foot summer wind waves,  we can hoist a sail for stability if needed.

Here are a couple more pics of Quasars roll chocks...

On Friday, April 10, 2020, 11:44:30 AM PDT, Ron Rogers <rcrogers6@...> wrote:


Unsubstantiated personal theory: the slower the boat the bigger the bilge keels need to be. The original owner of my boat upsized the Naiad fins one size because of boat speed. The same thing has been done on some Nordhavns. Therefore, Veronica's rather large bilge keels (they stick out more) explain there relative effectiveness.

On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 2:36 PM Ron Rogers via groups.io <rcrogers6=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
Veronica's picture makes the "chocks" look like they stick out further than 10". I sure wish we knew for sure because the owners said that they work. Just put "Veronica" in search.

On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 1:31 PM Peter P via groups.io <pete_pisc=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
RIchard - a few thoughts.

1. Attached PDF is an article from the WBO files. 

2. Below is a cut/paste from Veronica on their roll-chock install. I was hoping there was more info on the dimensions, but nada. I would assume at least 10-feet long. The PDF article mentions 5-inches at base, 2-inches at outer edge. How deep? I'd guess 10-inches? Maybe there's a pic of Verionica in the FIles. 

3. If I were to do this, I would make the core in foam, then glass over it. 

Great project - keep us posted.

Peter


This commentary is in response to inquiries about my experience installing roll chock, also called bilge keels.  Bilge keel is probably the proper name for these appendages.  I will, however, use the more colloquial term "roll chock" for two reasons.  A bilge keel sounds like it should be de$igned by a Naval Architect.  Roll Chocks sounds like the sort of thing a grizzled old waterman would slap on his boat using nothing more than his knowledgeable eye and skilled hands. The latter describes the process that led to Veronica's appendages, so I will call them Roll Chocks. 

Veronica is a Willard 40 raised pilothouse trawler, built in 1974.  I am her fourth owner.  After many years of sailing San Francisco Bay, my wife and I decided to take up trawlering.  I knew I wanted a full displacement trawler, after all, my sailboat was a full displacement hull.  The full displacement requirement limited my choices to Willard, Krogen and a few others.  When I first saw Veronica, I was smitten.  The prior owner had restored her to better than new condition.  There was dust in the bilge, she was so dry.  When my wife whispered in my ear, "If we don't buy this boat, we'll kick ourselves the rest of our lives."  We live in Northern California, but Veronica was in Marathon Florida, in the Keys.  So we decided to buy her and do the Great Loop piecemeal. 

Now, about the name.  The prior owner renamed her Veronica, after his mother.  A picture of her is displayed on the bridge.  Like the boat, she is formidable.  It is a credit to the checkout given to me by the prior owner that I came to know the boat as Veronica.  I briefly gave thought to change her name to Ruthless, after my deceased mother, but spouse and siblings put an end to that. 

We discovered her rolling abilities early on.  In a beam sea of 2 or 3 feet, she would set up a roll which got worse with every wave.  Other than holding on, it didn't bother me, but the same cannot be said of my wife and dog.  I seriously considered renaming the dog "Major Chunks," but my spouse and siblings put an end to that.

In St. Charles, VA, I met a waterman admiring Veronica's lines.  Bluff in the counter and round in the bows.  We got to talking boats.  He allowed as she "looks to roll a mite" and I allowed she did.  He suggensted I stick on a pair of Roll Chocks.  I asked him what's a roll chock? and the rest is history.  Any boatyard round here'll do it for you he said. 

So, when we decommissioned for the winter at Sea Mark Marine in Crisfield, MD, Mark Good, the owner, known to one and all as Goody, asked how she handled a beam sea.  I told him about Major Chunks and all that.  Mentioned the waterman who suggested roll chocks.  Goody marched around the boat a couple times and said, yeh, we could do 'er.  I asked how much and what kind of guarantee he offered.  He said $10,000.  If you don't like'em, I'll take them off no charge for anything.

I figured, what the hell. 

So I came out early in the Spring to recommission and supervise the roll chocks.  You can see the results in the pictures in this folder.  Do they work?  We took a shakedown cruise, accompanied by Goody in his (shudder) Bayliner.  At anchor in Onancock (that's the name of the place, really!) the Willard rolled less than the Bayliner.

A couple of days later, heading for Annapolis, we got waked by a Sportfisherman.  Seriously waked.  I couldn't turn to take it bow on due to traffic, so we took a 5 ft. wake beam on.  It was a total non-event.  Didn't wake the dog.  A couple of gentle rolls, each weaker than the last, and that was it.  I said to myself, "Goody, you're a effing genius."

We were waked again later in the trip.  My wife, the Presbyterian minister's daughter, said the same thing. 

To say the roll chocks are a success is an understatement.  I have included some light reading on the subject for those who are interested.  Steve Bedford of this group have been aboard and are contemplating doing the same to their Willard 40 as well. 

It is the best change I have made in the boat.  40 knots of wind on the beam, no problem.  Its not as nice as balmy zephyers, but it is doable and not hazardous, although the fun quotent is getting low.  No discernable change in fuel burn, turning radius or running angle. 

If you have any questions, feel free to contact me on or off list.

Bob Salmons, Milly and Riggs the poodle

Veronica

Willard 40 RPH


On Friday, April 10, 2020, 01:12:35 PM EDT, richarddalaska <rpackard@...> wrote:


While we “shelter in place” in San Carlos Mexico, I have decided to have roll chocks installed on Lilliana, our W40 sedan. Has any other W40 owner made preliminary designs for such fins? I need to decide on length, width, thickness, shape and placement. At present I just have the photos from Veronica that are on this site.

One consideration involves how to set the angle wrt the hull so that they do not break off if we ever go aground on an outgoing tide.. Assuming that much of the weight of the boat would then rest on one chock we wouldn’t want it to break off or puncture the hull.

At present I think I would make the chocks from 1-1.5” plywood, covered in fiberglass and epoxy with a large radius fillet at the point of hull attachment. Leading and trailing edges will be streamlined  but not sharp.

Any idea are much appreciated.


--
Richard P
Willard 40 -Lilliana-Sea of Cortez, Mexico
Willard 30- Puffin- SE Alaska
Tiffany Jayne 34-sailboat- Dancer- SF Bay

--

M/V Weebles
1970 Willard 36 Sedan Hull #40

Ensenada, MX

Ron Rogers
 

On the Willard Group website, just type "Veronica" into the Willard search box. It will take you right to her description and photos. Her bilge Keel is shorter yjan yours and sticks out much more.
Ron

Peter P
 

Hi Mike - first, gotta say, given your last name, I like the vessel name ("Miles to Go"). 

I assume you have a Vosper Thornycroft Mini-Fin system, which is what my 1970 #40 had. I just replaced the system with a similarly sized Wesmar as I was unable to get the fins off the shafts to service the system. So I have a complete spare system, minus the fins (and I think the shafts were damaged in removal). I won't keep the spares for long, but if it's something you could use, let me know. 

In hindsight, as convenient as active fin stabilizers are (and the new generation are supposedly very good), I should have taken Richard P's advice and gone with a paravane system. Simple and effective, though not nearly as convenient. Live and learn. I would think the W36PH would be especially well suited to a paravane system given you can put the H-Frame aftward - ideal location is supposedly 1/3rd forward of stern, which appears to be pretty close to where the side PH doors are. 

Let me know if you need any parts. I'd be happy to drop at a mailbox place and have them ship to you (or anyone else). The brain-box looks more or less new. 

M/V Weebles
1970 Willard 36 Sedan Hull #40

Ensenada, MX

Pease, Dan
 

That boat pictured with the blue bottom and the bilge keel in primer grey is my 30 ft Willie Dawes.  Horizon model.

We have been very happy with these keels which I fashioned from a wrecked HobieCat.  I shortened them in the middle and added a little to take the curse off the original transom.  I chose the Hobie because they go thru the water nicely and they give you a wide enuf foundation that there is no worry that they will ever get torqued off.

Dan Pease

On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 2:14 PM Peter P via groups.io <pete_pisc=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Here are the JPGs from the archives.



On Friday, April 10, 2020, 02:07:49 PM EDT, Ron Rogers <rcrogers6@...> wrote:


chock did not work for me Peter. I did go to the picture of Veronica. Bilge keels that I have seen on commercial trawlers in North Carolina and pictures of English fishing boats show much longer bilge keels which do not stick out as much. BUT, Veronica's owner has reported that theirs work well.

On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 1:36 PM Peter P via groups.io <pete_pisc=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Apoligies for multiple responses. Go into the <PHOTOS> section of the main WBO site. Search on "chock" and you will see two pictures. Also search on "Veronica" and you will turn up her fins which are surprisingly thin, so perhaps plywood core. All three pictures are from different boats, and are quite a bit different. 

M/V Weebles
1970 Willard 36 Sedan Hull #40

Ensenada, MX


--

M/V Weebles
1970 Willard 36 Sedan Hull #40

Ensenada, MX

Ron Rogers
 

Brilliant! How do they work underway and how do they work at rest? Thanks.
Ron Rogers

On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 10:31 PM Pease, Dan <capt.revere@...> wrote:
That boat pictured with the blue bottom and the bilge keel in primer grey is my 30 ft Willie Dawes.  Horizon model.

We have been very happy with these keels which I fashioned from a wrecked HobieCat.  I shortened them in the middle and added a little to take the curse off the original transom.  I chose the Hobie because they go thru the water nicely and they give you a wide enuf foundation that there is no worry that they will ever get torqued off.

Dan Pease

On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 2:14 PM Peter P via groups.io <pete_pisc=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Here are the JPGs from the archives.



On Friday, April 10, 2020, 02:07:49 PM EDT, Ron Rogers <rcrogers6@...> wrote:


chock did not work for me Peter. I did go to the picture of Veronica. Bilge keels that I have seen on commercial trawlers in North Carolina and pictures of English fishing boats show much longer bilge keels which do not stick out as much. BUT, Veronica's owner has reported that theirs work well.

On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 1:36 PM Peter P via groups.io <pete_pisc=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Apoligies for multiple responses. Go into the <PHOTOS> section of the main WBO site. Search on "chock" and you will see two pictures. Also search on "Veronica" and you will turn up her fins which are surprisingly thin, so perhaps plywood core. All three pictures are from different boats, and are quite a bit different. 

M/V Weebles
1970 Willard 36 Sedan Hull #40

Ensenada, MX


--

M/V Weebles
1970 Willard 36 Sedan Hull #40

Ensenada, MX

dpstainsby Stainsby
 

As previous owners of Foley's Fault a  36' sedan cruiser, my wife and I were seriously investigating bilge keels/roll chocks.

Unfortunately we had to sell our boat before finalizing the decision but Roy Brown, the owner of Independant Marine in Coombs, British Columbia, has a good reputation for installing same. If my memory serves me correctly he quoted me around $4,000 to make and install. I'm not exactly sure how he makes them but it looked like he had a u shaped mould which he formed fiberglass over. The base where he attached to the hull was 6 or so inches wide and had flanges to help with glassing the finished product to the hull. I think he made them to extend either 12 inches or 18 inches from the hull depending on the size of boat and they were probably over 20 ft long. Roy claimed that there was no problem lifting the boat with the straps running over the keels. Some people had holes in them to allow them to fill with seawater and I believe some were weighted to provide extra stability.

This was approximately 4 years ago that I was investigating this so I may be in error on some of my comments but if you wish you may contact me and I will try to put you directly in touch with Roy who is usually very willing to be helpful.

I am concerned about fuel efficiency and in particular carbon emissions so if anybody does install bilge keels it would be wonderful if they could provide me with before and after fuel consumption figures. Roy has put many many keels on fish boats and some pleasure boats and from my understanding they all love them, but any fuel consumption figures are just anecdotal.

This subject is still of interest to us because we were just at a state where we could afford another boat before the pandemic threw a wrench into things financially and travel wise. We hope that is just temporary and we will be looking for a Willard 40 soon.

We've seen a video of Lilliana on U-Tube several times and admire her always.

Hope this helps and good luck,

Dick Stainsby, dpstainsby@...

250-248-8843



020-04-10 10:12 a.m., richarddalaska wrote:

While we “shelter in place” in San Carlos Mexico, I have decided to have roll chocks installed on Lilliana, our W40 sedan. Has any other W40 owner made preliminary designs for such fins? I need to decide on length, width, thickness, shape and placement. At present I just have the photos from Veronica that are on this site.

One consideration involves how to set the angle wrt the hull so that they do not break off if we ever go aground on an outgoing tide.. Assuming that much of the weight of the boat would then rest on one chock we wouldn’t want it to break off or puncture the hull.

At present I think I would make the chocks from 1-1.5” plywood, covered in fiberglass and epoxy with a large radius fillet at the point of hull attachment. Leading and trailing edges will be streamlined  but not sharp.

Any idea are much appreciated.


--
Richard P
Willard 40 -Lilliana-Sea of Cortez, Mexico
Willard 30- Puffin- SE Alaska
Tiffany Jayne 34-sailboat- Dancer- SF Bay