Topics

Railings & more caprails WAS: Willard Penant


Sven
 

Hi Dick and Pam,

On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 03:55 PM, dpstainsby Stainsby wrote:

I am very interested in how your new railings worked out. Pam and I have an Australian Shepherd and a Border Collie cross, (not exactly perfect boating dogs), and we have been discussing putting on railings and netting instead of the life lines to try our best to keep them safe. Perhaps horizontal mid rails instead of netting.

The rails we installed we designed just for Nancy and me.  It only took one or two trips up to the bow while we were hauled out to realize how easily we would get tripped by the low and loose lifelines and fall the 10+ feet to the pavement below.  The height and the pavement made it obvious but the risk of getting tripped is just as high when you'd just fall into the much softer water.  We told our SS artist Keith that we wanted the railings to be 30" tall,  on top of the caprails, the combined height is ~34" from the deck.  Keith warned us that 1" thick-wall tubing would show some flex at that height but safety-wise it was fine.  He custom fabricated the bases to take up the stress and strain from the taller rails and each base is 5"x4" which warms my heart :-)

We specifically told Keith that we did not want a second rail or wire,  we wanted to be able to sit down on the caprail and duck our heads to get onto the dock or back onboard LAGOM.  For us that works fine but with children or dogs you'd probably want a second rail or wire,  or netting.

We love how the railings have worked out.  We don't regret staying with 1" tubing,  we feel the flex but there is no way we are bending it without breaking bones first.  If anything,  the slight deflection softens the occasional stumble when moving around on deck under way.  

It would be nice to put in new cap rails at the same time put I think the price of teak is probably prohibitive and I'm not sure the quality is there anymore, so I will probably, (when time permits),  scarf in pieces that are bad and try to set the exposed or nearly exposed screws deeper and re-plug them.

If we had a couple of weeks in the yard we might have lifted all the fittings (and the paravane arch !!) off the caprail and glassed it in,  but we'll make the current ones work.

I'm also thinking that where the caulking looks very questionable at the end joints of the teak, I will make a template to enable me to rout out  the joint to a little under 1/4 inch wide by maybe I/2 inch deep.

Routing and caulking is probably the solution.  We resisted doing any more sanding to the previously abused wood,  it is too thin as it is.  We wiped it all down with acetone and mineral spirits before applying 3-4 coats of Smith's Penetrating epoxy  and then we put on 3-4 coats of Cetol Marine Gloss (not the orange stuff !!) and so far it has held up almost two years in the Southern California sun.  The only problem we ran into is that the Smith's has such low viscosity that we dripped onto the inside gelcoat in a few places without realizing it and it doesn't show up until it starts to yellow.  Nancy applied lots of elbow grease and plastic scrapers and Mr Clean Magic Eraser Pads to finally get rid of the boo-boos.

For a 36-year-old boat she's pretty gorgeous in our eyes.



-Sven


Pease, Dan
 

In reference to your teak rail scarf suspect leak point I can offer a suggested fix.
My solution was to drill a series of ½ or ⅝ inch holes with forstner bit about halfway down into the scarfs. Next, epoxy teak bungs into these holes.  Align the bung grain across the scarf joint.  Space these holes apart with the intention of drilling alternate holes after the epoxy cures and you have chisel the bungs flush. Repeat in between holes.
For a stronger joint alternate or use larger bungs.
I did this on my Willard 30 about ten years ago and they are perfect today. No varnish either. After the color evens out these scarfs are harder to see than the original scarfs.
A tribute to this method's tenacity is that after doing all my scarfs like this(and still having leaks)I lifted the entire caprail off the boat as one unit and resealed the deck/hull joint, then bedded and refastened the caprail. There was no movement.
Sorry I can't come up with a photo, but I think there is one under either Audition or Willie Dawes on the WBO site among other hair-brained schemes as sculpting the Deadwood for better water flow to the prop, and using Hobie Cat hulls as (anti) roll chocks/bilge keels.

Dan

On Sat, Aug 22, 2020, 11:07 Sven <southbound@...> wrote:
Hi Dick and Pam,

On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 03:55 PM, dpstainsby Stainsby wrote:

I am very interested in how your new railings worked out. Pam and I have an Australian Shepherd and a Border Collie cross, (not exactly perfect boating dogs), and we have been discussing putting on railings and netting instead of the life lines to try our best to keep them safe. Perhaps horizontal mid rails instead of netting.

The rails we installed we designed just for Nancy and me.  It only took one or two trips up to the bow while we were hauled out to realize how easily we would get tripped by the low and loose lifelines and fall the 10+ feet to the pavement below.  The height and the pavement made it obvious but the risk of getting tripped is just as high when you'd just fall into the much softer water.  We told our SS artist Keith that we wanted the railings to be 30" tall,  on top of the caprails, the combined height is ~34" from the deck.  Keith warned us that 1" thick-wall tubing would show some flex at that height but safety-wise it was fine.  He custom fabricated the bases to take up the stress and strain from the taller rails and each base is 5"x4" which warms my heart :-)

We specifically told Keith that we did not want a second rail or wire,  we wanted to be able to sit down on the caprail and duck our heads to get onto the dock or back onboard LAGOM.  For us that works fine but with children or dogs you'd probably want a second rail or wire,  or netting.

We love how the railings have worked out.  We don't regret staying with 1" tubing,  we feel the flex but there is no way we are bending it without breaking bones first.  If anything,  the slight deflection softens the occasional stumble when moving around on deck under way.  

It would be nice to put in new cap rails at the same time put I think the price of teak is probably prohibitive and I'm not sure the quality is there anymore, so I will probably, (when time permits),  scarf in pieces that are bad and try to set the exposed or nearly exposed screws deeper and re-plug them.

If we had a couple of weeks in the yard we might have lifted all the fittings (and the paravane arch !!) off the caprail and glassed it in,  but we'll make the current ones work.

I'm also thinking that where the caulking looks very questionable at the end joints of the teak, I will make a template to enable me to rout out  the joint to a little under 1/4 inch wide by maybe I/2 inch deep.

Routing and caulking is probably the solution.  We resisted doing any more sanding to the previously abused wood,  it is too thin as it is.  We wiped it all down with acetone and mineral spirits before applying 3-4 coats of Smith's Penetrating epoxy  and then we put on 3-4 coats of Cetol Marine Gloss (not the orange stuff !!) and so far it has held up almost two years in the Southern California sun.  The only problem we ran into is that the Smith's has such low viscosity that we dripped onto the inside gelcoat in a few places without realizing it and it doesn't show up until it starts to yellow.  Nancy applied lots of elbow grease and plastic scrapers and Mr Clean Magic Eraser Pads to finally get rid of the boo-boos.

For a 36-year-old boat she's pretty gorgeous in our eyes.



-Sven


dpstainsby Stainsby
 

Hi Sven and Nancy,

Once again thank you for some valuable insights and information. From the pictures we've seen I expect she looks gorgeous to almost everybody's eyes.

All the best, Dick and Pam

On 2020-08-22 8:06 a.m., Sven wrote:
Hi Dick and Pam,

On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 03:55 PM, dpstainsby Stainsby wrote:

I am very interested in how your new railings worked out. Pam and I have an Australian Shepherd and a Border Collie cross, (not exactly perfect boating dogs), and we have been discussing putting on railings and netting instead of the life lines to try our best to keep them safe. Perhaps horizontal mid rails instead of netting.

The rails we installed we designed just for Nancy and me.  It only took one or two trips up to the bow while we were hauled out to realize how easily we would get tripped by the low and loose lifelines and fall the 10+ feet to the pavement below.  The height and the pavement made it obvious but the risk of getting tripped is just as high when you'd just fall into the much softer water.  We told our SS artist Keith that we wanted the railings to be 30" tall,  on top of the caprails, the combined height is ~34" from the deck.  Keith warned us that 1" thick-wall tubing would show some flex at that height but safety-wise it was fine.  He custom fabricated the bases to take up the stress and strain from the taller rails and each base is 5"x4" which warms my heart :-)

We specifically told Keith that we did not want a second rail or wire,  we wanted to be able to sit down on the caprail and duck our heads to get onto the dock or back onboard LAGOM.  For us that works fine but with children or dogs you'd probably want a second rail or wire,  or netting.

We love how the railings have worked out.  We don't regret staying with 1" tubing,  we feel the flex but there is no way we are bending it without breaking bones first.  If anything,  the slight deflection softens the occasional stumble when moving around on deck under way.  

It would be nice to put in new cap rails at the same time put I think the price of teak is probably prohibitive and I'm not sure the quality is there anymore, so I will probably, (when time permits),  scarf in pieces that are bad and try to set the exposed or nearly exposed screws deeper and re-plug them.

If we had a couple of weeks in the yard we might have lifted all the fittings (and the paravane arch !!) off the caprail and glassed it in,  but we'll make the current ones work.

I'm also thinking that where the caulking looks very questionable at the end joints of the teak, I will make a template to enable me to rout out  the joint to a little under 1/4 inch wide by maybe I/2 inch deep.

Routing and caulking is probably the solution.  We resisted doing any more sanding to the previously abused wood,  it is too thin as it is.  We wiped it all down with acetone and mineral spirits before applying 3-4 coats of Smith's Penetrating epoxy  and then we put on 3-4 coats of Cetol Marine Gloss (not the orange stuff !!) and so far it has held up almost two years in the Southern California sun.  The only problem we ran into is that the Smith's has such low viscosity that we dripped onto the inside gelcoat in a few places without realizing it and it doesn't show up until it starts to yellow.  Nancy applied lots of elbow grease and plastic scrapers and Mr Clean Magic Eraser Pads to finally get rid of the boo-boos.

For a 36-year-old boat she's pretty gorgeous in our eyes.



-Sven


dpstainsby Stainsby
 

HI Dan,

Thanks for creative interesting solution.

All the Best, Dick

On 2020-08-22 8:42 a.m., Pease, Dan wrote:
In reference to your teak rail scarf suspect leak point I can offer a suggested fix.
My solution was to drill a series of ½ or ⅝ inch holes with forstner bit about halfway down into the scarfs. Next, epoxy teak bungs into these holes.  Align the bung grain across the scarf joint.  Space these holes apart with the intention of drilling alternate holes after the epoxy cures and you have chisel the bungs flush. Repeat in between holes.
For a stronger joint alternate or use larger bungs.
I did this on my Willard 30 about ten years ago and they are perfect today. No varnish either. After the color evens out these scarfs are harder to see than the original scarfs.
A tribute to this method's tenacity is that after doing all my scarfs like this(and still having leaks)I lifted the entire caprail off the boat as one unit and resealed the deck/hull joint, then bedded and refastened the caprail. There was no movement.
Sorry I can't come up with a photo, but I think there is one under either Audition or Willie Dawes on the WBO site among other hair-brained schemes as sculpting the Deadwood for better water flow to the prop, and using Hobie Cat hulls as (anti) roll chocks/bilge keels.

Dan

On Sat, Aug 22, 2020, 11:07 Sven <southbound@...> wrote:
Hi Dick and Pam,

On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 03:55 PM, dpstainsby Stainsby wrote:

I am very interested in how your new railings worked out. Pam and I have an Australian Shepherd and a Border Collie cross, (not exactly perfect boating dogs), and we have been discussing putting on railings and netting instead of the life lines to try our best to keep them safe. Perhaps horizontal mid rails instead of netting.

The rails we installed we designed just for Nancy and me.  It only took one or two trips up to the bow while we were hauled out to realize how easily we would get tripped by the low and loose lifelines and fall the 10+ feet to the pavement below.  The height and the pavement made it obvious but the risk of getting tripped is just as high when you'd just fall into the much softer water.  We told our SS artist Keith that we wanted the railings to be 30" tall,  on top of the caprails, the combined height is ~34" from the deck.  Keith warned us that 1" thick-wall tubing would show some flex at that height but safety-wise it was fine.  He custom fabricated the bases to take up the stress and strain from the taller rails and each base is 5"x4" which warms my heart :-)

We specifically told Keith that we did not want a second rail or wire,  we wanted to be able to sit down on the caprail and duck our heads to get onto the dock or back onboard LAGOM.  For us that works fine but with children or dogs you'd probably want a second rail or wire,  or netting.

We love how the railings have worked out.  We don't regret staying with 1" tubing,  we feel the flex but there is no way we are bending it without breaking bones first.  If anything,  the slight deflection softens the occasional stumble when moving around on deck under way.  

It would be nice to put in new cap rails at the same time put I think the price of teak is probably prohibitive and I'm not sure the quality is there anymore, so I will probably, (when time permits),  scarf in pieces that are bad and try to set the exposed or nearly exposed screws deeper and re-plug them.

If we had a couple of weeks in the yard we might have lifted all the fittings (and the paravane arch !!) off the caprail and glassed it in,  but we'll make the current ones work.

I'm also thinking that where the caulking looks very questionable at the end joints of the teak, I will make a template to enable me to rout out  the joint to a little under 1/4 inch wide by maybe I/2 inch deep.

Routing and caulking is probably the solution.  We resisted doing any more sanding to the previously abused wood,  it is too thin as it is.  We wiped it all down with acetone and mineral spirits before applying 3-4 coats of Smith's Penetrating epoxy  and then we put on 3-4 coats of Cetol Marine Gloss (not the orange stuff !!) and so far it has held up almost two years in the Southern California sun.  The only problem we ran into is that the Smith's has such low viscosity that we dripped onto the inside gelcoat in a few places without realizing it and it doesn't show up until it starts to yellow.  Nancy applied lots of elbow grease and plastic scrapers and Mr Clean Magic Eraser Pads to finally get rid of the boo-boos.

For a 36-year-old boat she's pretty gorgeous in our eyes.



-Sven