Topics

Can you sell a Willard for $300,000?

Richard A. Miller
 

Good Afternoon!

I am working to answer two key questions:

1. Why, among all the boats on the market, should a would-be cruising boater be interested in a Willard 40?

2. Once interested, why should he/she consider paying more than $225 - 250,000, or even more than $300,000, for any of the several late-model Willard 40s in existence (including my 2000 Willard 40 Flybridge Sedan Trawler, the Adria, or Michael Zimmers’ 1991 W40 FBS the Candor, or Patrick Gerety’s 2002 W40 Pilothouse model, the Aloha?

I think you will find the results very interesting.

Richard Miller

donna lynn
 

Hi Richard,

My husband and I have lived on our Willard 40 for about 9 years so I can answer your questions from what we looked for in a trawler.
1.  Why, among all the boats on the market, should a would-be cruising boater be interested in a Willard 40? 
  • W40 is one of the few fully ballasted trawlers - we came from sailboats, so a fully ballasted trawler was important to us for stability, safety and economy
  • Almost all the current trawlers on the market today are not really trawlers.  They "fast" trawlers.  Krogen is the exception and those boats are just to big and clunky for us
  • W40 has great lines
  • W40 has one of the best layouts I've seen
  • W40 has a solid reputation for well constructed boats
2.  Once interested, why should he/she consider paying more than $225 - 250,000, or even more than $300,000 
This question is a little tougher because it depends on the person buying the boat.  My husband tends to change the boats we live on so we often buy boats that need some work since he'll take it apart anyway.

Other people dont have the skill, time, desire to do the kind of work my husband does, so if you have a W40 that has been redone inside and out (awlgrip, newer engine/generator, newer electronics, etc..) it could be well worth the money to spend 200K-300K since a new 40-foot trawler would be $500K.

I think it boils down to finding the right person for the boat.

Fair winds,
Donna
Blue Moon W-40 1988
Norwalk, CT


On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 5:43 PM Richard A. Miller <ramillerco@...> wrote:
Good Afternoon!

I am working to answer two key questions:

1.  Why, among all the boats on the market, should a would-be cruising boater be interested in a Willard 40?

2.  Once interested, why should he/she consider paying more than $225 - 250,000, or even more than $300,000, for any of the several late-model Willard 40s in existence (including my 2000 Willard 40 Flybridge Sedan Trawler, the Adria, or Michael Zimmers’ 1991  W40 FBS the Candor, or Patrick Gerety’s 2002 W40 Pilothouse model, the Aloha?

I think you will find the results very interesting.

Richard Miller



Richard A. Miller
 

Very thoughtful and cogent remarks, Donna!  Many thanks.
Richard M

On Dec 14, 2019, at 8:39 AM, donna lynn <dl2sail@...> wrote:

Hi Richard,

My husband and I have lived on our Willard 40 for about 9 years so I can answer your questions from what we looked for in a trawler.
1.  Why, among all the boats on the market, should a would-be cruising boater be interested in a Willard 40? 
  • W40 is one of the few fully ballasted trawlers - we came from sailboats, so a fully ballasted trawler was important to us for stability, safety and economy
  • Almost all the current trawlers on the market today are not really trawlers.  They "fast" trawlers.  Krogen is the exception and those boats are just to big and clunky for us
  • W40 has great lines
  • W40 has one of the best layouts I've seen
  • W40 has a solid reputation for well constructed boats
2.  Once interested, why should he/she consider paying more than $225 - 250,000, or even more than $300,000 
This question is a little tougher because it depends on the person buying the boat.  My husband tends to change the boats we live on so we often buy boats that need some work since he'll take it apart anyway.

Other people dont have the skill, time, desire to do the kind of work my husband does, so if you have a W40 that has been redone inside and out (awlgrip, newer engine/generator, newer electronics, etc..) it could be well worth the money to spend 200K-300K since a new 40-foot trawler would be $500K.

I think it boils down to finding the right person for the boat.

Fair winds,
Donna
Blue Moon W-40 1988
Norwalk, CT


On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 5:43 PM Richard A. Miller <ramillerco@...> wrote:
Good Afternoon!

I am working to answer two key questions:

1.  Why, among all the boats on the market, should a would-be cruising boater be interested in a Willard 40?

2.  Once interested, why should he/she consider paying more than $225 - 250,000, or even more than $300,000, for any of the several late-model Willard 40s in existence (including my 2000 Willard 40 Flybridge Sedan Trawler, the Adria, or Michael Zimmers’ 1991  W40 FBS the Candor, or Patrick Gerety’s 2002 W40 Pilothouse model, the Aloha?

I think you will find the results very interesting.

Richard Miller



Peter P
 

I think Donna has nailed it. These boats are the next-step for recovering sailors (well, except for Richard P who remains bi-modal with his Dancer sailboat).

As most know, I was more or less out of boating for a few years and recently back into with my refit of Weebles. I used to believe that if you bought a boat roughly right, kept her in good condition including keeping-up with modern upgrades (e.g. electronics), you could sell it for about what you bought her for, minus the holding/carrying costs, upgrade costs, and broker's commission. For years, I tracked the GB42 prices and the axiom seemed to hold-up well.....until now. I suspect something happened during the Great Recession that shifted the resale line down for all boats, Willards included. Sailboats appear to be especially hit hard. Example, there are quite a few KK42's out there in the sub-$200k range. Maybe Jeff M can comment as he undoubtedly has more market intel than anyone on this list. Answer could be as simple as older boats just fell out of favor as newer designs cram more interior into the same length (again, definitely the case with sailboats)

I moved to Florida 10+ years ago and my good boating buddy also moved here and bought a sumptuous Horizon Power Cat 52 to dock behind his house. I really thought Florida was go-fast country, no place for a trawler. But I was wrong - with the skinny waters of Florida, it screams out for a full-keel boat with protected prop (he has tapped bottom twice, once was a 5-figure repair). And the covered decks on a Willard are fantastic - standard tri-cabin trawler (GB and knock-offs) are not nearly as well suited. 

I love these boats. Weebles will be our last boat and will be a brand new 36-footer when she's done. But I'm not sure how you differentiate a circa 2000 model W40 from a circa 1988 model. It's one of the few topics not discussed on this forum. I know Aloha is a PH with walkaround decks and a nice JD engine and extra tankage, but do these last W40s have some other design features? Non-cored decks? Non-concrete ballast? Non-plastic windows? Etc.? Beyond simple condition - wihich must be immaculate at the $300k price point, what design features differentiate the last W40's from their earlier brethren? Mind you, these last W40's are approaching 20-years old..... 

M/V Weebles
1970 Willard 36 Sedan Hull #40

Ensenada, MX

Ulrich La Fosse
 

Both Donna and Peter P’s responses make sense to me, but I thought I’d add a few comments:

As to why a slow trawler and specifically why a Willard?  ... for me it really came down to the paucity of choices of true, economical, full displacement boats of this size, that were also a “reasonably“ priced and (as Donna noted) have appealing lines.    Before buying my 1988 FBS 40 in October last year, I had considered and looked at several KK‘s of the same general vintage but they all needed a lot of work.

My take away is that it is nearly impossible to find a 20 the 35-year-old boat that has teak decks and has been consistently well maintained by each and every one of her many owners. So Willards, with their minimal exterior teak have a leg up on Kk’s and other similar trawler choices.

Nonetheless, it’s plenty hard and costly dealing with decades old systems (without having to deal with rotted out decking). Case in point, I tried to replace the motor on my 20 year old Vetus bow thruster but they no longer sell it, so am forced to haul and replace the entire unit. Ditto with the old  (broken) Autohelm autopilot for which parts are impossible to find and, in any case, won’t interface with a modern GPS Chartplotter. This is why I can’t imagine spending anything in the two handle or more to purchase a Willard 40 that’s about twenty to fourty years old. 

Ulrich
1988 40 FBS
Compass Rose

Peter P
 

Re: autopilot. Ulrich - did the old Autohelm AP not run NMEA 0183? Weebles has a Comnav AP that drives the boat on rails and I had not planned to swap as the new Simrad system can take at least two 0183 feeds, but I haven't actually gotten to that part if the refit yet. Did you encounter otherwise? 

Good point about teak decks. One of the few attributes that put a boat on the will-not-own list. 

Richard - you had owned a W30 prior to purchasing Adria, which was pretty close to new as I recall. What swayed you to Adria vs a used W40 at the time? 




On Sat, Dec 14, 2019 at 11:17 PM, Ulrich La Fosse via Groups.Io
<ulrichfa@...> wrote:

Both Donna and Peter P’s responses make sense to me, but I thought I’d add a few comments:

As to why a slow trawler and specifically why a Willard?  ... for me it really came down to the paucity of choices of true, economical, full displacement boats of this size, that were also a “reasonably“ priced and (as Donna noted) have appealing lines.    Before buying my 1988 FBS 40 in October last year, I had considered and looked at several KK‘s of the same general vintage but they all needed a lot of work.

My take away is that it is nearly impossible to find a 20 the 35-year-old boat that has teak decks and has been consistently well maintained by each and every one of her many owners. So Willards, with their minimal exterior teak have a leg up on Kk’s and other similar trawler choices.

Nonetheless, it’s plenty hard and costly dealing with decades old systems (without having to deal with rotted out decking). Case in point, I tried to replace the motor on my 20 year old Vetus bow thruster but they no longer sell it, so am forced to haul and replace the entire unit. Ditto with the old  (broken) Autohelm autopilot for which parts are impossible to find and, in any case, won’t interface with a modern GPS Chartplotter. This is why I can’t imagine spending anything in the two handle or more to purchase a Willard 40 that’s about twenty to fourty years old. 

Ulrich
1988 40 FBS
Compass Rose


--

M/V Weebles
1970 Willard 36 Sedan Hull #40

Ensenada, MX

alohaboat
 

Yours is the best response to the question so far Donna.  Kudos!  The other thing is that trying to compare price of a 20 year old boat to a 40 year old boat of the same model doesn't make sense.
 With regards to Krogens:
"Almost all the current trawlers on the market today are not really trawlers.  They "fast" trawlers.  Krogen is the exception and those boats are just to big and clunky for us"

I had a chat with Jim Krogen at his office in Miami in the "90s."  He told me he designed the Krogen 42 as a "hybrid" - not a full displacement hull but with some characteristics of a semi-displacement hull - for a number of reasons.......including that it was designed as a coastal cruiser for shallower waters, somewhat faster speed for waterline length, and somewhat lighter construction.  He said it was never designed or intentioned as a blue water cruiser but more as a full time dockside liveaboard. 

Donna, you are right, boats are different things to different people and the value of that difference is very subjective.  Continue to enjoy your Willard, Donna.  I bet your husband has made some marvelous refurbishments to it.

Patrick
Willard 40PH
ALOHA

Richard A. Miller
 

Another excellent set of comments.  
Thanks, Patrick!
Richard M

On Dec 16, 2019, at 8:37 AM, alohaboat via Groups.Io <alohaboat@...> wrote:

Yours is the best response to the question so far Donna.  Kudos!  The other thing is that trying to compare price of a 20 year old boat to a 40 year old boat of the same model doesn't make sense.
 With regards to Krogens:
"Almost all the current trawlers on the market today are not really trawlers.  They "fast" trawlers.  Krogen is the exception and those boats are just to big and clunky for us"

I had a chat with Jim Krogen at his office in Miami in the "90s."  He told me he designed the Krogen 42 as a "hybrid" - not a full displacement hull but with some characteristics of a semi-displacement hull - for a number of reasons.......including that it was designed as a coastal cruiser for shallower waters, somewhat faster speed for waterline length, and somewhat lighter construction.  He said it was never designed or intentioned as a blue water cruiser but more as a full time dockside liveaboard. 

Donna, you are right, boats are different things to different people and the value of that difference is very subjective.  Continue to enjoy your Willard, Donna.  I bet your husband has made some marvelous refurbishments to it.

Patrick
Willard 40PH
ALOHA

Richard A. Miller
 

The Traditional Trawler (heavy, full displacement hull and relatively small, economical engine, well-protected propellor and rudder, comfortable but not  fancy, somewhat smaller and simpler, and reliable but rather less expensive - a la Willard) versus the Fast Trawler (medium weight, semi-displacement hull, two huge engines, two vulnerable propellors and rudders, able to run above hull speed gulping fuel, or at just under hull speed with efficient fuel usage and greater range, comfortable and very fancy, somewhat to much larger and more complex, and somewhat to very much more expensive - a la almost everyone else.

That is the divide.  

Both have advantages if cost is not a consideration, but the  new market has run heavily in favor of the bigger, faster, more luxurious Fast Trawlers for many years.

Willard recreational trawlers are worth cherishing because they offer qualities that the new market does not, and they were well enough built that with reasonable care and periodic upgrades they can go on and on and on!

More about the Willard’s Special Qualities eventually.

Richard Miller
Willard 30 Voyager Seagull 1998-2008
Willard 40 FBS Adria 200&-present 

On Dec 16, 2019, at 8:37 AM, alohaboat via Groups.Io <alohaboat@...> wrote:

Yours is the best response to the question so far Donna.  Kudos!  The other thing is that trying to compare price of a 20 year old boat to a 40 year old boat of the same model doesn't make sense.
 With regards to Krogens:
"Almost all the current trawlers on the market today are not really trawlers.  They "fast" trawlers.  Krogen is the exception and those boats are just to big and clunky for us"

I had a chat with Jim Krogen at his office in Miami in the "90s."  He told me he designed the Krogen 42 as a "hybrid" - not a full displacement hull but with some characteristics of a semi-displacement hull - for a number of reasons.......including that it was designed as a coastal cruiser for shallower waters, somewhat faster speed for waterline length, and somewhat lighter construction.  He said it was never designed or intentioned as a blue water cruiser but more as a full time dockside liveaboard. 

Donna, you are right, boats are different things to different people and the value of that difference is very subjective.  Continue to enjoy your Willard, Donna.  I bet your husband has made some marvelous refurbishments to it.

Patrick
Willard 40PH
ALOHA

Peter P
 

"The other thing is that trying to compare price of a 20 year old boat to a 40 year old boat of the same model doesn't make sense."

Devil's advocate: why doesn't it make sense? Clearly a different boat, but still a venerated trawler, consider Grand Banks as a barometer. Mid 1980's 42 classics are in the $150k range; 2000-ish classics are in the $275k range. But the difference is a bit more tangible - Cat 375hp engines; stabilizers; and island-queen berths are common on later boats. Buyer is making a decision on condition and equipment, not just newer-is-better. My take of Richard's question Part B was how to articulate this difference for Willard?

M/V Weebles
1970 Willard 36 Sedan Hull #40

Ensenada, MX

Pease, Dan
 

If the new boat manufacturers have done research on customer base, and are acting on it, it would appear that people want speed.

The people like us? that are okay with going slowly and smelling the roses along the way are either a dying  breed, or vastly outnumbered.

An example of trends is the “Ranger Tug” line, or at least one of that type has completely retooled there hulls so that they still look like a trawler (kind of), but are now built on a hull made for planing.

So folks want to look the part in harbor, but get to the next one fast.

And clearly the new boat buyers don’t care about economy.  Look at how many builders in the 30 to 45 foot size are now building boats using outboards!  Just line them up and head her for the next fuel dock.

The market share for the good boats (slow) (opinion) is very small by comparison.  And maybe the clientele is also, so The market is small.  And if you count the single screw GrandBanks/DeFever/Monk crowd as a part of the slow trawler market, then the market is flooded with trawlers.

The part that is in favor of higher used prices is that they aren’t being built any more, or at least not very many.

That being said, why someone would pay upwards of $200000 for a blister-prone line of boats is beyond me.  Unless they haven’t done their homework.

Dan


chris gibbs
 

I got no business in this chat- but? all up and down my street are blue collar guys that drive mega boats for rich people (key largo/ocean reef). life long guys...while I was telling my tale of 'traveling' on a motor boat? (<--sailboat guy)

that...speed is dollars. and yea yea- you can have the dollars however? over 20 knots...if you can afford it? your 'aging head' will be mighty worn. 20kts might be 'do-able' but not much fun but 30kts? not do-able.

that's all I know :-)

Chris

On 2019-12-16 12:53, Pease, Dan wrote:
If the new boat manufacturers have done research on customer base, and
are acting on it, it would appear that people want speed.
The people like us? that are okay with going slowly and smelling the
roses along the way are either a dying breed, or vastly outnumbered.
An example of trends is the “Ranger Tug” line, or at least one of
that type has completely retooled there hulls so that they still look
like a trawler (kind of), but are now built on a hull made for
planing.
So folks want to look the part in harbor, but get to the next one
fast.
And clearly the new boat buyers don’t care about economy. Look at
how many builders in the 30 to 45 foot size are now building boats
using outboards! Just line them up and head her for the next fuel
dock.
The market share for the good boats (slow) (opinion) is very small by
comparison. And maybe the clientele is also, so The market is small.
And if you count the single screw GrandBanks/DeFever/Monk crowd as a
part of the slow trawler market, then the market is flooded with
trawlers.
The part that is in favor of higher used prices is that they aren’t
being built any more, or at least not very many.
That being said, why someone would pay upwards of $200000 for a
blister-prone line of boats is beyond me. Unless they haven’t done
their homework.
Dan
Links:
------
[1] https://WillardBoatOwners.groups.io/g/main/message/17789
[2] https://groups.io/mt/68555211/2270402
[3] https://WillardBoatOwners.groups.io/g/main/post
[4] https://WillardBoatOwners.groups.io/g/main/editsub/2270402
[5] https://WillardBoatOwners.groups.io/g/main/leave/defanged

Ulrich La Fosse
 

Peter P — the defunct autopilot was an Autohelm 6000 and, so far as I could tell, it had no NMEA interface. I was told it was not worthwhile trying to repair it — even if I was able to source used parts for it.

Ulrich
W40 FBS
Compass Rose

Richard A. Miller
 

Dan Pease misspoke.

Willard 40s have NEVER been blister prone. I’ve heard of a few Willard 40s that had fallen into terrible disrepair but they never had a blister problem.

You are thinking of the Willard 30s built with fire-retardant resin in the early 1970s. 110 of them were built and they were prone to developing osmotic blisters (including on my 1974 Willard 30 Voyager). The blister problem on those boats was raging on this forum in the early 2000s, but over the past ten years the topic has died out. Maybe all those blisters got fixed or some folks decided they just weren’t worth fussing over.

Willard stopped using that resin sometime in the mid-seventies I think.

Richard Miller
Willard 30 Voyager Seagull 1998-2008.
Willard 40 FBS Adria 2008-present.

On Dec 16, 2019, at 8:10 PM, chris gibbs <wylie39@...> wrote:


I got no business in this chat- but? all up and down my street are blue collar guys that drive mega boats for rich people (key largo/ocean reef). life long guys...while I was telling my tale of 'traveling' on a motor boat? (<--sailboat guy)

that...speed is dollars. and yea yea- you can have the dollars however? over 20 knots...if you can afford it? your 'aging head' will be mighty worn. 20kts might be 'do-able' but not much fun but 30kts? not do-able.

that's all I know :-)

Chris


On 2019-12-16 12:53, Pease, Dan wrote:
If the new boat manufacturers have done research on customer base, and
are acting on it, it would appear that people want speed.
The people like us? that are okay with going slowly and smelling the
roses along the way are either a dying breed, or vastly outnumbered.
An example of trends is the “Ranger Tug” line, or at least one of
that type has completely retooled there hulls so that they still look
like a trawler (kind of), but are now built on a hull made for
planing.
So folks want to look the part in harbor, but get to the next one
fast.
And clearly the new boat buyers don’t care about economy. Look at
how many builders in the 30 to 45 foot size are now building boats
using outboards! Just line them up and head her for the next fuel
dock.
The market share for the good boats (slow) (opinion) is very small by
comparison. And maybe the clientele is also, so The market is small.
And if you count the single screw GrandBanks/DeFever/Monk crowd as a
part of the slow trawler market, then the market is flooded with
trawlers.
The part that is in favor of higher used prices is that they aren’t
being built any more, or at least not very many.
That being said, why someone would pay upwards of $200000 for a
blister-prone line of boats is beyond me. Unless they haven’t done
their homework.
Dan
Links:
------
[1] https://WillardBoatOwners.groups.io/g/main/message/17789
[2] https://groups.io/mt/68555211/2270402
[3] https://WillardBoatOwners.groups.io/g/main/post
[4] https://WillardBoatOwners.groups.io/g/main/editsub/2270402
[5] https://WillardBoatOwners.groups.io/g/main/leave/defanged

willardrefit@...
 

Three thoughts on messages in this thread: 

1) Willard 40's not blister prone? Well, ahem, you might revise the above statement if you saw the bottom of W40 Hull #1. We love her anyway, of course.

2) I am also very impressed with my older, simple, ComNav autopilot - 'on rails' is a good way to put it. I've let the AP drive me through Yuculta, Gillard, Dent, and Greene Point rapids (at close to slack, of course), and down a turbulent Johnstone strait with a 6-knot following current (wheeeeee!), and it handles that with aplomb. 

3) Fuel economy is well and good, but the buying public is correct not to make too much of it. In round numbers: I've owned W40#1 for about four years, 7,000 nautical miles, and maybe $55K in costs shouldered (covered slip, maintenance, insurance, diesel, in that order). Diesel was ~7% of that cost. 

Andrew
Willard 40 FBS Patience

Dan McNames
 

I had first hand experience in the Willard resin problem.  First, Willard not only mfg boats but also fiberglass armor plating for aircraft, combat patrol boats, some armored vests and a lot of armored cars for governments including Ronald Reagan's Presidential Limo, for Nancy and the State Department.  At the time they were considered pioneers in fiberglass technology.  The problem was in the resin supplier.  During the 1970's there was a shortage of resin on the market.  Allegedly because of the 1970's oil crisis ( that was totally fake ) but it was like a lot of business in the 1970's , bad products for high prices.  ( Remember the Chevy Vega, the Ford Pinto etc. )

Willard really took it in the shorts over this because the resin being supplied had falsified test data from the mfg.  In the 70's I was booting resin and fiberglass cloth out the gate at the Willard plant ( with their permission ) and using it for my rebuild projects for myself and customers.  I found out how bad the resin was when not once but twice I had laid up decks and wound up having to strip everything off and start over.  I tried temperature, resin mix ratios etc..  Nothing would work it would stay soft and pick up moisture.  Did not want to say anything and sound ungrateful or worse an Idiot so I kept my mouth shut.  Later my Dad said there was a lot of grumbling at the plant over many drums of bad resin.  Most was used on the W30's since few W40's were being produced.  This affected not only the trawler line but Willard was also building commercial planing hull boats plus some USG contracts.  It was quite an issue then.

Dan McN

Richard A. Miller
 

On Dec 16 Andrew Adams.com wrote:
Willard 40's not blister prone? Well,. . . if you saw the bottom of my W40 Hull #1. . .
The first 5 of the Willard 40 hulls were laid done in 1974 during the time when Willard Marine was using fire retardant resin. These all were built out as wide bodies without any side decks along the salon superstructure. From 1972 to 1975, 110 Willard 30s were built with that resin and they were very prone to blistering. I assume the same must have been true of the 1974 W40 hulls, and obviously with your No. 1.

I understand that the fire retardant resin was discontinued sometime between 1976 and 1978.

The second batch of five Willard 40 hulls were laid down in 1977, and no more until 1980. So I think it safe to say that unless Richard Packard’s Lilliana from 1977 (commissioned 1978) has had some blisters, none of the W40s built with side decks have reported blister problems that I know of.

Marine engineer, Larry Zeitlin, reported:

“I was told by a factory engineer that the early series hulls were constructed of the same plastic used for military specification boats. Willard supplied many of the craft used to pacify the Mekong Delta during the Vietnam war and halogen salts were incorporated into the resin as fire retardants. Unfortunately the salts also absorbed water. Obviously Navy combat and surf boats were never intended to last 25 years.”

Zeitlin, owner of a Willard 30 Horizon, had repaired over 300 blisters below the waterline on his boat. Message received February 17, 2002.

Richard Miller
1999/2000 Willard 40 Adria

Richard A. Miller
 

On Dec 16 Andrew Adams.com wrote:
Willard 40's not blister prone? Well,. . . if you saw the bottom of my W40 Hull #1. . .
The first 5 of the Willard 40 hulls were laid done in 1974 during the time when Willard Marine was using fire retardant resin. These all were built out as wide bodies without any side decks along the salon superstructure. From 1972 to 1975, 110 Willard 30s were built with that resin and they were very prone to blistering. I assume the same must have been true of the 1974 W40 hulls, and obviously with your No. 1.

I understand that the fire retardant resin was discontinued sometime between 1976 and 1978.

The second batch of five Willard 40 hulls were laid down in 1977, and no more until 1980. So I think it safe to say that unless Richard Packard’s Lilliana from 1977 (commissioned 1978) has had some blisters, none of the W40s built with side decks have reported blister problems that I know of.

Marine engineer, Larry Zeitlin, reported:

“I was told by a factory engineer that the early series hulls were constructed of the same plastic used for military specification boats. Willard supplied many of the craft used to pacify the Mekong Delta during the Vietnam war and halogen salts were incorporated into the resin as fire retardants. Unfortunately the salts also absorbed water. Obviously Navy combat and surf boats were never intended to last 25 years.”

Zeitlin, owner of a Willard 30 Horizon, had repaired over 300 blisters below the waterline on his boat. Message received February 17, 2002.

Richard Miller
1999/2000 Willard 40 Adria

Pease, Dan
 

I was about to question my information, but someone else did for me.  Sorry if I lumped all Willards together.

Hopefully they also corrected the concrete Ballantine in the 40s as well.

Dan Pease


On Mon, Dec 16, 2019 at 10:59 PM Richard A. Miller <ramillerco@...> wrote:
Dan Pease misspoke.

Willard 40s have NEVER been blister prone.  I’ve heard of a few Willard 40s that had fallen into terrible disrepair but they never had a blister problem.

You are thinking of the Willard 30s built with fire-retardant resin in the early 1970s.  110 of them were built and they were prone to developing osmotic blisters (including on my 1974 Willard 30 Voyager).  The blister problem on those boats was raging on this forum in the early 2000s, but over the past ten years the topic has died out.  Maybe all those blisters got fixed or some folks decided they just weren’t worth fussing over.

Willard stopped using that resin sometime in the mid-seventies I think.

Richard Miller
Willard 30 Voyager Seagull 1998-2008.
Willard 40 FBS Adria 2008-present.

On Dec 16, 2019, at 8:10 PM, chris gibbs <wylie39@...> wrote:


I got no business in this chat- but? all up and down my street are blue collar guys that drive mega boats for rich people (key largo/ocean reef). life long guys...while I was telling my tale of 'traveling' on a motor boat? (<--sailboat guy)

that...speed is dollars. and yea yea- you can have the dollars however? over 20 knots...if you can afford it? your 'aging head' will be mighty worn. 20kts might be 'do-able' but not much fun but 30kts? not do-able.

that's all I know :-)

Chris


> On 2019-12-16 12:53, Pease, Dan wrote:
> If the new boat manufacturers have done research on customer base, and
> are acting on it, it would appear that people want speed.
> The people like us? that are okay with going slowly and smelling the
> roses along the way are either a dying  breed, or vastly outnumbered.
> An example of trends is the “Ranger Tug” line, or at least one of
> that type has completely retooled there hulls so that they still look
> like a trawler (kind of), but are now built on a hull made for
> planing.
> So folks want to look the part in harbor, but get to the next one
> fast.
> And clearly the new boat buyers don’t care about economy.  Look at
> how many builders in the 30 to 45 foot size are now building boats
> using outboards!  Just line them up and head her for the next fuel
> dock.
> The market share for the good boats (slow) (opinion) is very small by
> comparison.  And maybe the clientele is also, so The market is small.
> And if you count the single screw GrandBanks/DeFever/Monk crowd as a
> part of the slow trawler market, then the market is flooded with
> trawlers.
> The part that is in favor of higher used prices is that they aren’t
> being built any more, or at least not very many.
> That being said, why someone would pay upwards of $200000 for a
> blister-prone line of boats is beyond me.  Unless they haven’t done
> their homework.
> Dan
> Links:
> ------
> [1] https://WillardBoatOwners.groups.io/g/main/message/17789
> [2] https://groups.io/mt/68555211/2270402
> [3] https://WillardBoatOwners.groups.io/g/main/post
> [4] https://WillardBoatOwners.groups.io/g/main/editsub/2270402
> [5] https://WillardBoatOwners.groups.io/g/main/leave/defanged







Dan McNames
 

The reason fire retarding resin was used on the civilian production was, it was purchased along with the government contracts that specified specifically fire retardant resin.  No point in having two different types in the mfg facility and there is a price break with quantity.  I remember in sales it was pointed out Willard used fire retardant resin in the W30 and W40.  The early resin was problematic and the test results were rubber-ed.  Later resin was more stable.  As he said, military contracts are not for long term usage, combat fiberglass boats are classified as consumables.  Fire resistance was more of a factor than lifespan.  Fire retardant resin is to a certain extent hydroscopic and that with the glass matt, makes for micro migration through a hull.  More on the molecular level.  That is why Sea Horse hull, setting full of water is slowly hydrating.  It would take a very long time for it to dry out, if at all.  The gel coat and more so the paint on the hull is the water barrier to a fiberglass hull.

I'll post some pics of Willard government boats later on, including factory literature.  I still have a Willard armored vest and some samples of aircraft armor.

After the contract with these Britts is over in the islands, I will look for the doggiest W40 on the market and just rebuild it into a quasi pilot house.  If I live that long.  A friend just purchased an ArrowCat 32 to use over there.  Twin turbo diesel IO's.  48 kt wide open and good for inter island, but the fuel burn ! !

Dan McN


On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 02:50 PM, Pease, Dan wrote:
I was about to question my information, but someone else did for me.  Sorry if I lumped all Willards together.
 
Hopefully they also corrected the concrete Ballantine in the 40s as well.
 
Dan Pease

On Mon, Dec 16, 2019 at 10:59 PM Richard A. Miller <ramillerco@...> wrote:
Dan Pease misspoke.

Willard 40s have NEVER been blister prone.  I’ve heard of a few Willard 40s that had fallen into terrible disrepair but they never had a blister problem.

You are thinking of the Willard 30s built with fire-retardant resin in the early 1970s.  110 of them were built and they were prone to developing osmotic blisters (including on my 1974 Willard 30 Voyager).  The blister problem on those boats was raging on this forum in the early 2000s, but over the past ten years the topic has died out.  Maybe all those blisters got fixed or some folks decided they just weren’t worth fussing over.

Willard stopped using that resin sometime in the mid-seventies I think.

Richard Miller
Willard 30 Voyager Seagull 1998-2008.
Willard 40 FBS Adria 2008-present.

On Dec 16, 2019, at 8:10 PM, chris gibbs <wylie39@...> wrote:


I got no business in this chat- but? all up and down my street are blue collar guys that drive mega boats for rich people (key largo/ocean reef). life long guys...while I was telling my tale of 'traveling' on a motor boat? (<--sailboat guy)

that...speed is dollars. and yea yea- you can have the dollars however? over 20 knots...if you can afford it? your 'aging head' will be mighty worn. 20kts might be 'do-able' but not much fun but 30kts? not do-able.

that's all I know :-)

Chris


> On 2019-12-16 12:53, Pease, Dan wrote:
> If the new boat manufacturers have done research on customer base, and
> are acting on it, it would appear that people want speed.
> The people like us? that are okay with going slowly and smelling the
> roses along the way are either a dying  breed, or vastly outnumbered.
> An example of trends is the “Ranger Tug” line, or at least one of
> that type has completely retooled there hulls so that they still look
> like a trawler (kind of), but are now built on a hull made for
> planing.
> So folks want to look the part in harbor, but get to the next one
> fast.
> And clearly the new boat buyers don’t care about economy.  Look at
> how many builders in the 30 to 45 foot size are now building boats
> using outboards!  Just line them up and head her for the next fuel
> dock.
> The market share for the good boats (slow) (opinion) is very small by
> comparison.  And maybe the clientele is also, so The market is small.
> And if you count the single screw GrandBanks/DeFever/Monk crowd as a
> part of the slow trawler market, then the market is flooded with
> trawlers.
> The part that is in favor of higher used prices is that they aren’t
> being built any more, or at least not very many.
> That being said, why someone would pay upwards of $200000 for a
> blister-prone line of boats is beyond me.  Unless they haven’t done
> their homework.
> Dan
> Links:
> ------
> [1] https://WillardBoatOwners.groups.io/g/main/message/17789
> [2] https://groups.io/mt/68555211/2270402
> [3] https://WillardBoatOwners.groups.io/g/main/post
> [4] https://WillardBoatOwners.groups.io/g/main/editsub/2270402
> [5] https://WillardBoatOwners.groups.io/g/main/leave/defanged